To build or not to build?

[Cheap USB Charger]

Hi everybody

After building several micros I wanted to step up this year and build a “real” quad. Originally I planned to make things simple and use one of the very common (even though a bit out of fashion now) 250 frames. But then I stumbled across the Trifecta frame at HK, which was very cheap. And since I had always been fascinated by the shape of tricopters, I had to get it (with the suggested Turnigy servo).

On a side note, HK also have (or had) an RTF tricopter in their shop, probably the only one on the market (?), but due to their crazy shipping rates it was almost double price. Still interested in that one as well.

Anyway, I’m still hesitant whether it’s a good idea to try a tri as first brushless build, since I’m aware it can make things much more complicated due to the tail servo. Also when it comes to available information, there is of course much more to be found about regular quads. Therefore I was really happy to find this forum which seems to be THE place for tris on the web. 🙂 If you look on YT, there are more videos about problems (with tail servo…) than about successful flights, which doesn’t inspire much confidence…

I personally don’t understand why tricopters seem be such a niche thing (well, apart from them being more difficult to set up), but I’m always interested in things out of the ordinary. 😉

Anyway, to sum it up: Should I try it? I know how BF works but I’m no PID guru. The FC I was planning to use is Matek F405, a very common one, because I reckon if the tri attempt fails completely I can easily switch to building a quad with that one. So I didn’t want to get anything too specifically tailored to tricopters. Is that FC a good idea?

Thanks for any hints!

[Kevin_Erik]

First off the F405 FC is good so long as your using an IMU that’s not overly sensitive. I recommend the CTR but not the AIO. There is firmware support for it.

Now as for Tri’s being a “niche” build, Quads get all of the attention (advertising money) as they’re selling four motors vice three. Beyond that, the firmware support for Tri’s tends to come after the fact and only then because someone who’s dedicated (Lauka), gave their time to create it. Very rarely do manufactures come out and support platforms outside their norms as there is no profit in it for them. It’s simple economics really.

The Servo’s aren’t too difficult so long as you build your Tri smart from the word go.Biggest issue I see is having clean power for the Servo so that it’s less prone to Jitter or Brown outs.

[LitterBug]

My first tricopter was a trifecta and this is my advice… RUN AWAY FAST! DO NOT BOTHER WITH THE TRIFECTA! It is cheap plastic and can take absolutely no abuse. Save your time and get one of @David’s RCExplorer kits. Pick up a Mini-Tri instead which has all the convenience of a folding tri, with great durability and a great community. Stick with the stock frame/FC , but switch up motors and ESCs if you want. Simplest way to go would be with the full kit and you would have excellent support here on the forums.

Cheers!
LitterBug

2x Baby Tri + 1 MiniTri

[Kevin_Erik]

Supporting David’s work is a good thing as lets be real here. David’s like the only dev I have heard of who’s made anything for Tricopters.

[Cheap USB Charger]

Thanks for the replies!

– FC: I was aiming at neither AIO nor CTR, but STD plus FCHUB-6s (https://www.banggood.com/Matek-F405-OSD-BetaFlight-STM32F405-Flight-Controller-Matek-FCHUB-6S-Hub-Power-Distribution-Board-for-RC-Drone-p-1194724.html?rmmds=detail-left-hotproducts__1&cur_warehouse=CN) – would that be ok?

– “Niche” was probably the wrong word, I didn’t mean it in a marketing sense, only that I don’t get why there are not more people fascinated by the shape of tricopters.

– Fragile Trifecta frame: Well, being a careful pilot I usually don’t crash that much/hard. But since getting a Trifecta build to fly great seems to be a bit of a challenge, it would probably be better to have a frame that doesn’t break on the slightest impact. What makes me suspicious as well is that there is in fact a long, multipart build video about the Trifecta – but the guy never uploaded any flight footage afterwards, so… 😉

– Since I only just arrived here, I had not known about the frames etc. available here. I took a quick look and everything sure looks really well-designed and well-made. I will check it in more detail when I have the time. For now there are 2 problems: a) Unfortunately, my budget currently allows for getting the F405 but nothing more expensive (but that may change), b) I’d really like a integrated OSD. I just added a MicroMinimOSD to another micro build and really hoped it would be the last time, since BF OSD is just so much more comfortable…

– Components I already have (coming) and want to use in the build: EMAX RS2205 2300KV CCW Brushless Motor BLHeli 30A ESC Combo (https://www.gearbest.com/motor/pp_613137.html), Dalprop Cyclone T5045C, and FrSky XM+ as receiver. Are those ok / would they be compatible with the MiniTricopter sold here? –

– Is it possible to connect the MiniTricopter PDB to the F405? (Remember this is my first brushless build, never dealt with PDBs so far.)

– Just in case I ever wanted to: Is there a good place for a GPS pole on the Mini, or would that require the huge one? The Trifecta came with its own GPS mount – although I’m not sure about that one, seems to be too close to the other components.

– Looking at the price difference, I guess the HK servo I already have (https://hobbyking.com/de_de/turnigytm-tgy-9018mg-mg-servo-2-5kg-0-10sec-13g.html) is not good enough?

Thanks in advance!

[Kevin_Erik]

-The F405-STD 32K IMU (Gyro / Acc) will be a real pain in the butt. Using the STD, your Tricopters tail will wag constantly / uncontrollably. Honestly it’s not worth it and I suspect a lot of Quad pilots will avoid it too for similar stability reasons. Stick to a 6000 series chip like in the “CTR” and you’ll thank me later.

-Avoid Banggood like the global plague they are. Not had a ONE good experience with them EVER. No matter what they charge, I’ll spend a few more dollars somewhere else to make sure i get the right order, have good service and don’t have to spend a ton on overseas shipping.

-If your going to build a Tricopter, do it right and get your gear from quality suppliers. Even if that means you’ll need to spend more or wait longer to save up what’s needed. Planning and preparation is key to having a successful build.

-Your 2300kv Emax motors should do fine @ 4S but be careful not to use too strong of a prop angle. Bad news however… Per another customer who also had purchased the exact same package, Quote “ESC are 20A not 30 , Don’t support D-shot and can’t be upgraded to D-shot”. The ESC’s look like they’re a no-named product with an Emax label slapped on them. I highly doubt Emax produces those as I’ve never seen them on Emax’s website.

Note: I’d use the Emax LS2207-2550kv @ 4S if i were to stop flying 6S with the Emax LS2207-1900KV.

-Crashing it will happen so just get over it. Just depends on how much shit you want to fix when it does. David’s frames are pretty robust being mostly all carbon fiber. (4 mm)

-Most of the Youtubers fly Quads and get paid to make videos of new gear flown on Quads. Hence all the kiddies want to build and fly Quads. Until Tricopters get some form of unique performance edge that quads can’t match, our “Niche” is not likely to change.

-OSD is part of the F405 so nothing to buy other then a good Camera and VTX. I currently use the Matek VTX (no crappy micro connectors) and the Runcam Split v2. I can do FPV and record video at the same time from the same setup.

-I’d strongly suggest using an 4-In-1 ESC setup as it allows you to keep the ESC’s & capacitors off the arms. Take a look at the last page or two of this thread for an example of what i mean. It’s safer, easier to install and lighter. https://rcexplorer.se/forums/topic/tri-mini-build-matek-f405-aio/ I started out using the F405-AIO and individual ESC’s. While this worked, It was a constant headache to maintain and a bitch to tune. Far as I can tell, everyone of the capacitors I mounted had been struck by a propeller at some point.

-You don’t need a separate PDB with the F405 as it can manage its own voltage. Like i mentioned previously, the 4-in-1 is very nice as I was able to keep all of the motor wires off the F405 and only use the control wiring between the F405 and the 4-In-1 ESC. It’s very neat and clean this way. It has the added benefit of isolating the F405 from allot of the electrical noise and vibrations generated from the motors.

-Forget the GPS unless your building a very large Tricopter with extended flight capabilities.

-The Turnigy servo is one of the cheapest around, sure it will work but then again you get what you pay for. Be aware that David’s servo is the BMS-210 (digital with feedback wire) which is pretty much the standard to go by for most Tricopter builds. Having said that, I’ve had positive experience with the BMS-385Max and have found that it uses a larger motor to produce better torque for the same weight. Just have to wiring in your own feedback wire to be able to complete a valid tail tune.

Side note: If you’re using a Matek Flight controller and good ESC’s, then your Tricopter should be 90% 6S capable. May only need to swap out the motors and rewire 1 or 2 things and your set. I’ve an 6S Baby-Tricopter and the power is enormous.

[LitterBug]

Oh, the other fun part that I forgot about the trifecta is the extremely poor fitting tail pivot. Aluminum gear riding on steel pin… (bi-metal = very bad idea) It would bind really bad straight out of the box. Thought I had it moving freely but then it would still bind up in flight, which led to some of the “abuse”. I ended up spending a good deal of time getting it to move freely and not bind any more. Ie different grits of sandpaper up to 2000 grit, and white lithium grease.

I still have the trifecta, and every once in a great while think about throwing it back together with junk parts and passing it along to someone who needs a touch of tri madness, Or maybe it should be entered in a combat session at FliteFest East this summer. LOL

[Cheap USB Charger]

“-Avoid Banggood like the global plague they are. Not had a ONE good experience with them EVER. No matter what they charge, I’ll spend a few more dollars somewhere else to make sure i get the right order, have good service and don’t have to spend a ton on overseas shipping.”

Well, I hate to say it but this untrue comment is a bit difficult for me to get over, so let’s get this out of the way before getting back on topic.

1) I’m close to 200 orders at BG and among that I had maybe 2-3 unpleasant experiences over the years. The vast majority of orders were without any problems. So I don’t know where your impression comes from, it cannot come from personal experience unless you had really bad luck. Also their Matek FCs are genuine, so they shouldn’t perform worse?

2) You don’t pay “a ton on overseas shipping” – shipping is actually free. 😉 You can add a few cents for insurance (all lost items are replaced or refunded) and a tracking number. My latest orders reached me in less than 2 weeks (in Europe) which is just great.

3) Many people (me included) could never have started the RC hobby if it wasn’t for sites like Banggood. Not everybody can afford to pay 5 times (not just a few dollars) as much for a high-end frame or buy an antenna that’s the price of a whole BNF micro quad, or 10 times the price of one at BG. So for me, cursing the Chinese companies and merchants seems a bit like elitist attitude claiming RC should remain a hobby for people with lots of cash, like it was in previous decades. Thanks to the Chinese, those times are over, and more people can enjoy flying.

Now about the other topics:

– I did read the buyer comment about the ESCs included in the combo before purchasing, but I have to make compromises. It just wasn’t possible to pay 150-200 Euros for high-end motors and ESCs alone. From what I read so far, 20A ESCs are ok with 3S (I wasn’t planning to use anything higher for now, too expensive and no need) and those motors (obviously, since they are sold in a combo), and copters also fly without d-shot? If that’s not correct, I’d be grateful for a warning. 🙂

Keep in mind I’m coming straight from micro quads, the final edge in performance is not (yet) necessary for me.

– I had been looking at the Matek VTX as well, but I have some VTX’s lying around (even a quality one from Fatshark), so I’ll pass on that (saving the money). And is it really no problem having the heat generated by the VTX so close to the FC?

– I’m a bit confused whether or not you’re recommending the AIO or the CTR version. Is the AIO version not the one with 4-in-1 ESCs, or did I mix something up? I heard about noise problems somewhere with the AIO, that’s why I opted for individual ESCs.

Thanks for your help!

[Kevin_Erik]

Expect a lot of problems most of which cannot be easily resolved simply by asking for advice. Unfortunately you’ve decided to skip the important bits and go right for the build. Remember, I said the key to a successful build is planning and preparation. The internet is full of folks who assumed, failed and then came back asking for help.

My final advice, learn from their mistakes and heed the wisdom of those who’ve successfully built a Tri. Well anyways, have fun attempting to build the Trifecta and double good luck getting it flyable.

[Cheap USB Charger]

Well, thanks for not answering any more questions and then accusing me of failed planning and coming back afterwards with problems… Very funny. 😀

I haven’t even started the build, that’s why I came here for advice beforehand, as anybody can read above and even in the topic’s title. Anyway, I might as well drop the whole tricopter idea, if this is what it takes to be on the one and only forum for that. Would be too bad for David as I had almost decided to throw away the Trifecta and get the MiniTri parts once I have saved up the money.

Having knowledge is one thing, the ability to share it in a useful manner, to adjust to the receipient is another. Like, why even mention 6S to a newbie coming from 1-2S brushed micros? I’m sure you enjoy it but I don’t need it at all, not to mention the price of such batteries. Or the crashing that “will happen” – believe me, you fly differently when you simply don’t have neither the money for tons of spare parts nor the time to fix stuff all the time. I’d rather spend the time I have flying and building, keeping repairs to a minimum. (That’s also why I asked if a tri is a good idea at all.)

By the way, you seem to ignore the fact that all your information on Banggood was wrong. I hope the rest was correct and I can use it safely. Maybe someone else could still answer the questions in my previous post, would be highly appreciated, thanks.

[biggestRCEfan]

I can just say that the tricopters (all three models) from David gave me immense pleasure. I did buy stuff also from flitetest, BG and HobbyKing. Sometimes the experience is better than others. I started flying tricopters on the flitetest electrohub on nase32. What I found was that it is challenging to follow advice on this and other forums. Especially when the perspective is lost a little bit. It is easy to think one’s own experience, budget and overall context apply to others asking questions. Those questions and the answers often have gaps in them, which only gets filled by your own experience and reading of many answers.

By the way, I crashed and rebuilt many times. Part of the fun is troubleshooting and upgrading when you rebuild 🙂 They are all stock.

[Kevin_Erik]

Our advice was given and yet you’ve chosen to persist with a subpar plastic frame, a cheap Servo and an overly sensitive Flight Controller. We apparently can’t say much beyond those choices to convince you. Yet we can already see the problems you’re likely to encounter and it’s this bit which is frustrating. From my perspective, it’s like watching a train wreck in slow motion. That being said, I apologize if my statements are a bit blunt but sometimes the best way to get the point across is to be direct.

To answer your overall question… No, i don’t believe a Tricopter would be ideal for you. You don’t appear to have the time needed to research how build a proper Tricopter. Instead, you’re looking for a quick and easy build to just jump into. Unfortunately, that doesn’t exist unless your buying one of David’s kits.

Now as for Banggood, a few months back when I’ve asked them to track a purchase, I was told to go fuck myself. I don’t know what passes for bad service for you but that was the last time I’ve done business with BG. The BG management attempted to make amends by refunding the purchase after the fact but then never apologized for their staffs inappropriate behavior. Despite this, it wasn’t the first time BG’s staff has lost it on a customer. Had it happen to a friend a few weeks prior to my event but unfortunately, his situation was never resolved.

[LitterBug]

I built my trifecta with @david’s BabyPDB and F3FC Racing and added the servo feedback to the servo I used myself. Found a few pics from my build showing the awesome RCExplorer BabyPDB and the F3FC Brain.

One of the last fixes I had to do was to use a through bolt on the sevo mount. (see tail fixedish picture attached) After that… I had a Baby tri on hand and moved the PDB and FC over to there.

Cheers!
LitterBug

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